The Challenge of Ageism in Our Families and Communities

Dr. Gendron, author of Ageism Unmasked, explains the concept of ageism, and discusses the impact that ageism has on our communities and families. She then outlines her thoughts on a healthy approach to aging

Transcript

Welcome  to  CHP Conversations: a podcast series produced by the VCU College of Health Professions. This  series  includes  conversations with  faculty,  students, and  alumni  who  exemplify our  mission  to  create influential  leaders  in  healthcare. Hi,  I'm  Jared  Schultz  and  I'm  from the  Department  of  Rehabilitation  Counseling  in the  College  of  Health  Professions here  at  Virginia  Commonwealth  University. I'm  joined  today  by  Dr.  Tracy  Gendron  and  who  serves  as the  Chair  of  the  Department  of  Gerontology and  the  Executive  Director  for the  Virginia  Center  on  Aging  here  at VCU.  With  over  25  years  of  experience  as  a  gerontologist, Dr. Gendron,  and  is  the  author  of  the  book, "Ageism Unmasked: Exploring  age  bias  and  how  to  end  it". She's  frequently  quoted  in popular  media  outlets  including the  New  York  Times,  The  Huffington  Post, and  US  News  and  World  Report. Dr.  Gendron  has  spoken  about ageism  in  forums  across  America and  it  can  be  seen  and  heard  as  a  guest  speaker  on numerous  podcasts  and  video  productions. So  thank  you  Tracy  for  joining  me  today. I  am  happy  to  be  here,  Jared. It's  good  to  be  talking  with  you. You've  expended  or,  spent  a  lot  of  time in  your  career  addressing  the  topic  of  ageism. And  it's  one  of  those  words  that is  out  there  and  you  hear  it. But  just  for  our  audience, would  you  mind  just  kind  of backing  up  and  explaining  what  it is  and  how  we  observe  it  in  our  communities. Absolutely, you have  an  hour  or  so? It  might  take  me  a  few  minutes. Multi-episode podcast.  Exactly, multi  episode  podcast. But  ageism  is  actually  really  ubiquitous. So it's  everywhere  and  yet, because  it's  really  has an  awareness  problem, it's  also  an  invisible  at  the  same  time. So  ageism  is  about  how  we  see  people  of  different  ages. It's  directed  both  at  younger  individuals and  older  individuals, but  it's  when  we  assume  or  judge  or  come  at somebody  in  a  negative  way because  we  think  they're  in a  different  age  group  than  we  are, and  therefore  think  that  they are  fundamentally  different  than  we  are. So  ageism  is  other-directed. But  ageism  is  also  internally-directed and  it's  how  we  feel  about  ourselves  is  aging  people. And  that's  one  of  the  things that  people  don't  talk  about  quite  as much  as  this  sense  of internalized  ageism  and  the  consequences  that  it  has. Ageism  is  also  relational so  it's  how  we  communicate with  each  other  formally  and  informally. The  things  that  we  say  that  perpetuate it, that  keep  us  valuing  youth  over  old  age. And  it's  everywhere,  meaning  it's  embedded  in our  culture  from  large  messages- think  anti-aging  as  a  industry, all  the  way  down  to  how  we  talk  about ourselves  when  we  disparage  what  it  means  to  be  old, or  we  self-deprecate  what  it  means  to  be  old. So  it's  actually  really  complicated because  it's  embedded  in so  many  different  ways  and  layers. Yeah,  I  mean, it sounds like  there's, there's an element of attitudinal approach to things that mixed  with my lived experience, you know, like, getting older, my  body aches a little more  than  it  used  to  and  those  sorts  of  things. So it's  a  lot  of  layers  of  who  we  are. It's  a  lot  of  layers  of  who we  are  and  it's  one  of the  forms  of  our  identity  that continues to change  over  time. Ability  can  do  that  as  well, but  it's not stable. How  we  relate  to  the  world  and  how  the  world relates to  us  is  different when we're  20  than  when  we're  40, than  when we're 60, than when we're 80. So  it's  a  form  of  our  identity that we're constantly  exploring, that's constantly  changing. And that we really have to adjust  to, because people  do  react  differently to  you  when you're, again, 20 versus 80. It, it's  something that's  like ever present in our lives and constantly shifting and evolving. So earlier in  your definition, you talked about ageism as  being  other-directed. You mentioned that they're a little bit of judgmental. Is that- am I accurate in that? Yes, yes. Is there a, is there a healthy opposite? There  is  a  healthy  opposite, and I think, you know, in  gerontology we call it  being person-centered. So, and I think, you know, understanding and biases is embedded in our brain. Right? You know that. I'm  sure we've had multiple  conversations about it. We can't help but being biased. So much information comes  at  us  that we have to classify things very quickly. But if we focus instead on seeing the unique person in front of  us with all of their identities, then we can  kind of start to move  away from that automatic judgment of somebody as older or younger and then a potential prejudice or discrimination that may follow. So it takes a  little  practice. But I think  once we have the awareness of it, we realized that there's no blueprint for  what it means to be of a certain age. And  we  can  back  away  from  making those automatic assumptions and start  to  ask  questions  instead, either  internally  or  ask  the  person  we're  with, questions  about  who  they  are  and  what  they  prefer. So  it's  a  very  empowering  thought  that  we  can  recreate. I  mean, that its, we're  not  passively  receiving  that  process, but  that  we  can  actually  take initiative  and  create  that  for  ourselves. Exactly. And  then  not  only  are  you  empowering others  by  really  meeting them  for  who  they  are  and  where  they  are. But  think  about  the  power  that  has for  yourself  as  an  aging  person. So  once  we  have  that  recognition  that  we  are  all  aging, because  ageism  is  not  about  older  people, it's  about  all  people. Then  I  think  we  start  to  make  those  connections  of  how do  I  really  feel  about  myself  as  someone  that's  aging? Is  this  a  negative  that  I  carry  around? Is  it  something  that  I'm  dreading  and  that  I  fear? Is  it  something  I'm  looking  forward  to? And  once  we  ask  ourselves  that  question, I  think  we  open  up  a  whole  new  way of  thinking  about  it. Because  the  truth  is, many  of  us  are  taught that  aging  is  something  that  is  scary, that  is  negative,  that  is  all  about  decay  in  decline. And  we  stopped  really thinking  of  aging  is  living, and aging as being,  and  aging  as  becoming. So  it  makes  it  easy  to, kind of,   feed  into that  decline  narrative  instead  of  seeing  the  whole  story. So  talk  about  empowering,  once that  switch  comes  on  for  you. It's  like  you  can  envision your  future  in  a  whole  new  way. I  love  the  positive  approach  and  I  want  to  come back  to  that  a  little  bit  later. The  ageism  element, kind of that  negative  side  of  this  process. Any  thoughts  on  where  that  originates? I  mean,  you  talked  a  little  bit  about  fear  and misunderstanding  and,  where  does  it  come  from  in  us? Yeah, and that's  a  great  question and it  is  the  one  of  the questions  that  prompted  me  to  write my  book  because  I  often  got  the  comment, "Well,  didn't  we  use  to  revere  elders?" And  I  was  like,  "Well,  yes  and  no". So  in  the  book, I  started  from  the  very  beginning,  right? So  really  looking  at  what  do  we  know from  biblical  texts,  from  ancient  texts. And  what  I  learned  was  that  it's  always  been  complicated. So  while  we  do  have  references  of  revering  elders  and elders  being  the  leaders  of  churches  and elders  being  the  keepers  of  knowledge. At  the  same  time, you  can  find  references  to  aging  as  a  process  of disease  and  decay  and  fighting  wrinkles,  right? Even  ancient  Egyptians  had references  to  fighting  wrinkles. So  this  has  been  something  that's  been  around  forever. So  Cleopatra  had  her  face  cream  and  everythi-- Yes! Donkey  milk! Yes,  that's  exactly  what  it  was. Yes,  that's  really  what  it  was. So  we  see  that  the  complexity  has  always  been  there. And  I  think  ageism  is complicated  that  way  because  aging  is  complicated. Aging  is  a  series  of processes  that  are  fundamentally in  conflict  with  each  other,  right? We  have  decline  and  we  have  growth. It's  multi-directional  and  it's  multi-dimensional  and  you can't  pick  apart  that aging  does  include  biological  decline. It  does.  It  includes  biological  change. There's  wear  and  tear. There's  ways  that  we  don't function  as  well  as  we  used  to. There's  joints  wear  out. These  things  happen  because  we're  mortal. So  there's  truth  to  that. I  think  when  there's  truth  to  that, it's  easy  to  just  give  into  that,  right? That  aging  is  all  about  decline. It's  hard  to  hold  two  competing  ideals  at  the  same  time. But  aging  is  also  just  as  much  about  growth. Psychological  growth,  emotional  growth, growth  within  our  social  roles,  growth  in  spirituality. So  it's  about  seeing  the  whole  picture. But  to  your  original  question, it's  always  been  complicated. And  that's  one  of  the  reasons why  is  because  aging  is  complicated. Do you  find  that  it  is,  is  the  dynamic  of ageism  related  to  how  distance  someone  is  for  me? So  for example,  it, am  I  less prone  towards  ageism  within  my  own  nuclear  family, or  more  prone  to  the  further someone  is  distanced  from  me?  Does  that  make  sense? It  does  make  sense. I  think  what  I  can  say  about  that  is  one  of the  most  protective  factors  against  ageism is  close  relationships  with older  people  when  you're  younger. So  if  you  are  in  a  family  that  you  have a  tight  relationship  with  your  grandparents  or with  older  people  in  the  community, you  are  much  more  likely  to  have positive  associations  with  being  older. However,  on  the  other  side, if  you  don't  have  any  around  you, then  you're  basically  getting your  knowledge  about  what  it  means  to  be old  from  popular  culture  and  media. And  that  is  not  helpful. So  that  is  more  likely  to  feed the  stereotypes  of  aging  and  that  leads  to  ageism. So,  yeah,  it  really  does  depend  on  the  quality of  the  relationships  that  you  have with  older  people when  you're  younger? Do  you  see  differences  among  cultures that,  where, you know,  it's  more likely  that  you  have a  closer  multi-generational  family  connection in  some  cultures  than  others? Definitely.  And  that's  a  question  I  get  all  the  time is "isn't  this  different  in  other  cultures?" And  the  answer  to  that  is  also  yes  and  no. So  yes,  there  are  certain  cultures  that, I  think, do a   couple  of  things. There  are  more  that,  I  think, have  a  tendency  for multi-generational  families  and  households. And  that  definitely,  you  see  more  of this  normative  process  of people  caring  for  people  of  different  generations. And  that's  just  how  you  grow  up, that's  part  of  the  culture. On  the  other  hand, there  is  ageism  research  in  every  continent  and country  that  shows  that  ageism  exists  and  is  on  the  rise. So, I  think  in  part  as  capitalism  rises  and  we tend  to  value  efficiency and  productivity  and  contribution, we  tend  to  see  an  increase  in  ageism. Interesting. So  that  has  happened  globally. Interesting.  Yeah. So  we've  kind  of  danced  around a  little  bit  the  negative  elements  of  ages. But  let's  kinda  really  specify  what  are, what's  the  negative  impact? Yeah,  that's  a  great  question. So  there's  actually  decades  of research  that  shows  that  ageism  is a  public  health  problem  because the  impacts  that  it  has  on an  individual  level  is  profound. So  people  that  hold those  negative  attitudes  about  aging  who fear  that  they're  going  to  have cognitive  decline  or  lose their  memory  or  have  had  physical  decline, are  actually  more  likely  to manifest  that  cognitive  and  physical  decline. It  is  related  to higher  rates  biomarkers  for  Alzheimer's  disease, it  is  related  to  higher  rates  of  chronic  illness. It  is  related  to  taking  longer  to  recover  from  illness. And  there's  the  seminal  study  by  Becca  Levy, who  now  has  her  book  out,  that  shows that  people  who  embrace  their  own  aging, on  average  live  seven-and-a-half  years longer  than  people  that  fear their aging. And  this  study  was  after accounting  for  socioeconomic  status, loneliness,  functional  health,  gender- it  was  on  top  of  all  of  that. So  it  is  a  profound  impact to  our  health,  to  our  happiness, to  our  longevity,  also  social  isolation, depression,  all  of  it. And  yet,  we  know  that  smoking  is  bad  for  us. We  know  that  not  exercising  is  bad  for  us. We  don't  know  that  how  we  feel  about  ourselves  as an  aging  person  has  that  level  of  an  impact. I  have  to  admit  it's  a  fascinating  thing. And  as  a  counselor, my  mind just  went [mimicking explosion noise], right? Because  I'm, I'm  sitting  here  thinking, "Wow, I've  never  thought  of- What's  the  counseling  and intervention  to  help  someone  be comfortable  with  that  process?" And. Absolutely, and when  you  think about  it  from  a  biological  level,  it  makes  sense. I  mean,  when  we  have  fears  that  triggers the  stress  hormone  cycle,  right? (Mhm. Mhm.) So  we  have  that  rise  in  cortisol  and  that's  not good  for  our  body  if  you're  walking  around  constantly in  elevated  level  of  stress or  an  elevated  level  of  trauma, it's  going  to  lead  to  bad  outcomes. So  this  is  yet  another  stress  trigger, but  one  in  which,  like  you  said, we  don't  really  talk  about. So  yeah,  truly  think  of the  implications  if  we  started  to  just  have some  conversations  and  reframe  aging  for  people. I  was  just  listening  to a  podcast  not  too  long  ago  where  the  host  was making  the  differentiation  between making  the  point  that  the  neurological  process  for approaching  a  challenge  versus  a  threat are  two  different  neurological  processes and  have  a  different  impact. But  then  the  perception  of this  as  whether  it's  a  challenge, it's  a  challenge  and  I  can  embrace that  versus  this  is  a  threat  and  this  is  a  scary  thing- that's  all  in  your  interpretation. Exactly.  Jared,  I'm  seeing  a  research  opportunity for us here. A  paper  in  my  head  is  forming. I'm  sure  there's  a  grant  somewhere.  Yes, oh I'm  sure  there  is.  Let's  get  on  this  after  the  podcast. So, so,  talking  a  little  bit,  what  are, what  are  some  of  the  things  that  we  can  do, some  kind  of  concrete  things that  they  start  to  address  some  of  those  negatives? I  think  the  first  thing  is, no  matter  what  age  you  are, no  matter  what  stage  of  life  you're  in, is  to  identify  that  you  are  aging. Aging  is  not  about  older  people. Aging  is  about  all  people. So  I  think  the  first  is  just to  recognize  and  embrace  that. And  then  the  second  would  be  to  start  to  ask yourself  some  serious  questions. What  do  you  think  it  means  to  be  old? How  do  you  feel  about  your  aging? How  is  it  that  you  talk  about  aging  and  growing  older? What  role  models  do  you  have? So, when  you  think  about  the  older  people  in  your  life, are  you  thinking  about  opportunities? Are  you  thinking  about  people  that have  life  satisfaction,  that  can  find  joy? Or  are  you  thinking  about  some  of the  common  tropes  that  are  out  there  or  the  messages  that are  out  there  in  the  media  that basically  tell  us  we  need  products  and services  and  supplements  in  order  to maintain  our  vitality,  which  is  youthfulness. So  start  to  think  about  what  you  know  about  aging, where  you  learn  about  aging. And  then  I  think  you  can  really  start  to  get down  to  some  of  those  feelings  that  are  inside, maybe  even  some  of  the anxieties  that  you  might  have. And  then  once  you  identify  those  anxieties, you  can  seek  knowledge  that  helps  you  bust  the  myths  that helps  you  re-frame  what  you  think  you know  from  what  is  in  actuality. That's  always  something  that's interesting.  When  you  start  to go  down  to  the  myths  and  stereotypes  of  aging, most  people  believe  things  that  are  completely incorrect  because  it's  what  we're  taught. So  most  people  don't  know  about  the  U-curve  of  happiness. Most  people  don't  know  that  people  in their  earliest  and  latest  stages  of  life  are  actually  the happiest  and  go,  "What?!"  Most  people  don't  know that  most  older  people  were  will report  that  they  are  in  good  health, whether  they  are  in  good  health  or  not. They don't know about  positivity  effect, that  older  people  tend  to  see  the positive  in  things,  that  choose relationships  that  are  healthy  for  them because  they  have  the  lived  experience  to  do  it. That  most  people  are  not  depressed, that  is  not  a  part  of  normal  part  of  aging, nor  is  cognitive  decline  or  impairment. So, I  think  it's  the  reframing  piece  but  it  starts  with  us, and  it  starts  with  examining  how  we  feel  about  ourselves. The  reframing  process.  In my  own  work  I've been  reading  a  lot  about  and  thinking  a  lot about  the  process  of  empowerment  and  the  role  that  choice and  autonomy  of  choice  plays  in  empowering. And  one  of the  things, conclusions  I've  come  to  is  that  choice  is one  of  the fundamental  building  blocks  of  empowerment. Yeah.  And  so  I  guess  when  you  were  talking  about that  re-framing,  is,  are we  able  to  choose?  Are  we  able  to  go, "Okay,  this  is  how  I  was  raised. But  here's  some  examples. Here's  this  person  or  that  person. Maybe  I'm  not  related  to  them, but  that's  what  I  want. And  that's  the  attitudinal  approach  I'm  going  to  take". Yeah,  absolutely. I  think  we  all  have  that  choice. (Yeah) You know, I  think  it's  like  you  can't  help  what  happens  to  you, but  you  can  choose  how  you  respond  to  it. (Yeah.) So  same  here. We  can  choose  to  make an  active  choice  in  how  we  think  about  aging. And  I'm  not  saying  this  in  terms  of  it  is  all  positive. Look  their  challenges  with  every  stage  of  life, some  harder  than  others  for  different  reasons. So  I'm  not  saying  to  ignore  the  challenges, but  I  am  saying  that  we  can acknowledge  the  challenges  and  still recognize  that  there's  opportunity  for  growth  and development  with  those  challenges. So. Or  even  possibly  because  of those challenges.  Or  even  because  of  those  challenges, exactly. Yeah, I  mean,  you  think  about  that, the  U-curve  of  happiness. Is that what they call-- the  curve  of  happiness? Yeah, yeah. I  learned  a  new  term  today. Why  is  it  that  those  two  ends  of  the spectrum  demonstrate more  happiness and, you know, maybe the younger  people  don't  know that they  shouldn't be happy? I  don't  know. You know, not  a  whole  lot  of  life  experience, but  at  that  other  end, it's  that  life  experience  and  getting through  those  challenges  and  those pieces, you know, those  things  in  life  that kind of beat you around a little  bit- (Exactly)  that  allow  you  to  take perspective  on  everything  that's  going  on  around  you? Exactly.  And  through  challenges,  we  build  resilience. And we  build  coping.  So  the  next time  something  happens, we  go  "Eh. I've  been  there,  I've  done  that. I'm  not  going  to  let  it  shake  me  to  my  core". Whereas  the  first  time,  that's  really  scary. Yeah.  So  yeah. I  had  an  experience  with  my, my, my  wife's  grandmother. There were some  things happening, it was stressful  and  I  was  sitting  next  to  her  on the  couch  one  day  and  I  was deep in  my  thoughts  and everything  and  she  was  just  sitting  next to  me. And  she  reached  over  and  she  patted  me  on  the  knee. And she  goes,  "It's  gonna  be  okay". And  what  was  interesting because  I  was  pretty  young  at  the  time, but  I  recognize  that  it  wasn't  someone  just  saying, "Oh,  don't  worry,  it's  gonna  be  okay". It  was  the  voice  of  someone  who  had  been  through  a  lot. (Yeah.) And  it  was  the  voice  of  experience  saying,  "No, I  know  it's  hard. But you  can  get  through  it". And  it's  one  of  those  treasured  moments that  I have  with  my  wife's  grandma  (that's  beautiful), and uh, but  very  powerful  for  me,  life-changing. Absolutely. Because, yeah, that  was  a  voice  of  experience  and  it does,  it  kind  of  gives  you  some  reassurance. Like,  yeah. Okay.  I  can  feel  a  little  bit  of  comfort  now. Yeah. That's  lovely.  Yeah. So we've  talked  around  a  little  bit the  positive  elements  of aging  and  how  to  approach  it. Little  bit  more  on  that. What,  what  does  a  positive  aging  process  look  like? I  think  of  positive  aging  process  means being  open  to  all  the  challenges, to  all  the  possibilities  that  are  ahead. So  I  think  it  means challenging  some  of  the  assumptions  like, you  can't  teach  an  old  dog,  new  tricks. False. Anybody  can  learn  anything  at  anytime. I  think  it  means  I'm  too  old  to  pursue  this. False.  We're  never  too  old  to  be  able  to  pursue  a  dream. So  I  think, you know,  being  open  to the  possibilities  and  releasing the  constraints  that  we  put  upon  ourselves. We  do,  we  limit  ourselves  because  we think  I'm  too  old  to  start  a  degree  program. I'm  too  old  to  learn  a  new  language. I'm  too  old  to  go hang  out  with  this  group  of  young  people. I  think  we  need  to  just  really  challenge  that. And  then  the  world  kinda  opens  up. I  think  that  ageism  is  a  driver  of  social  isolation. You know, I  think  when  people  feel  excluded, when  people  feel  that  there's no  room  for  them  to  contribute. Of  course,  they're  gonna  be  isolated. And  even  a  self-remanded  isolation  is lonely, if  you  feel  like there's  no  place  for  you  to  belong. So  we  can  do  this  for  ourselves, but  the  other  thing  we  can  do  is open  opportunities  for  other  people. So  maybe  think  about  having a  friend  group  that contains  people  of  all  different  ages, seeking  out  those  kinds  of  relationships where  you  can  learn  from  people that  are  different  from  you. So  there's  benefits  for  you  and  for  others. Yeah. I'm just, in  some  of the  work I  do  in  the  community  and  I  interact  with, with  groups  fairly  frequently. And  one  of  the  things  that themes  that  I've  kind  of  hit  on  is the  need  that  we  have  to create  a  culture  of  invitation  (Yes.) Where  we  invite  others  in. (Yes.) And  it's  very  easy  for  me to  isolate  myself  or  to  be  with  a  few  people. But  if  I'm  going  to  a  museum, take  someone  along  with  you. (Yes.)  I  think  that  can  apply  in  this  situation  as  well, (Absolutely.) where  we're  reaching  out  and that's  a  hard  thing  to  do  sometimes. Oh,  absolutely,  it  is. And  I  think  there's  barriers  to  that. I  think  that  I  see the  generational  rhetoric  that we  spew  as  a  barrier  to  that. I  think  that  when  we label  or  categorized  groups  of  people  and assume  that  they  have  things  in common  and  things  that  are  different  from  us. That's  a  barrier  to  that. The  way  that  we  use  terms  like  boomers and  millennials  are  a  barrier  to  that. Because  again,  it's  feeding  those  assumptions  and judgments  if  somebody  based  on  a  perceived  age  group. So  I  think  we  need  to  be  mindful  of  that  and  then  yeah, invite  your  neighbor  or  just  have  a  conversation  with someone  or  talk  to  somebody  you  normally  wouldn't. That's  a  different  age  than  you  are. I  think  those  are  all  like  easy  strategies. Talk  to  me  a  little  bit  more  about the  generational  issue  because  that  to me  is  one  that  gets  a  lot  of hype  and  press  a  lot  of  attention. I  can't  pick  up  my  phone  and  see  my  news  feed  without half  the  articles  being  "Gen  Xers"  this  and  y's  and  z's. I  can't,  I  can't.  I  don't  even  know  what  they  are  anymore, to  be  honest  with  you,  can't  track  them  all. How-  what  are  some  of  the  challenges  of  that? I  mean, I just- it's  an  intriguing kinf of a thing  that  we've  created. It  is  a, actually,  very  detrimental  thing that  we  have  created. So  this  is  one  of  my  soap  boxes, is  that  generational  rhetoric is  ageism  and  it  leads  to  ageism. So  the  first  thing  I  think  we  need  to  understand is  these  concepts  of  generations  are  made  up. There  is  nothing  to  delineate  when a  generation  starts  and  when  a  generation  ends. This  is  something  that  we  have  created. This  is  something  that  marketers  have  created. And  this  actually  isn't  something  that  had  legs until  the  later  19th  century, 1980s,  1990s  is  when  we really  started  thinking  about  generational  theory. The  second  thing  to  recognize-  and was  it  the  boomers? I'm just kidding. Probably. It  probably  was,  yeah, probably was those boomers-- I'm just kidding. The  second  thing  to  realize  is  there's actually  no  solid  data  that  shows  that  it's generations  that  make  a  difference in  the  research  because  you can't  pick  apart  age  and  cohort  from  generation. And  most  of  the  research  has  cross-sectional. So  you're  really  just  getting attitudes  at  one  point  in  time. You're  not  looking  at  how  those  change  over  time. Right, so  there's  the  lack  of  longitudinal  data. Yes. Yeah. Doesn't reflect  the  changing  nature  of (Correct.)  who  we  are  and  our  attitudes  and  our  approaches. Exactly. Interesting. So  it's,  it's  dangerous  the  way  that  we  think about  it  and  it  takes  us away  from  that  person  centeredness. I  mean,  it  really  makes  no  sense  when  you think  about  it.  To  assume  that people,  in  a  15  or  20  years span, have  a  blueprint  for  their  behavior, have  the  same  voting  patterns, have  the  same  likes  and  dislikes, have  the  same  needs. I  mean,  I've  been  in  a  situation with  someone  right  next  to  me. We've  experienced  the  same  thing  and we  see  it  completely  differently. You  can't  group  people  like  that. So  what  it  ends  up  doing  is  creating this  false  tension  that  boomers  think  one  way, Millennials  think  another  way. Voting  is  the  best  example  of  that. People  think  that  all  older  people are  conservative  and  all  younger  people  are  liberal. Go  look  at  how  people  vote. It's  split  with  all  age  groups. Maybe  a  slight  elevation  for  some, but  no  more  than  60,  40. (Right.) Yet,  this  is  what  we  think. So it  keeps  us  in tension  with  each  other. And  it  keeps  us  from  seeing  that  we actually  have  more  in  common  with  each other  than  we  do  that's  different. Is  that  facilitated  by our  challenge  that  we  have  with  just the  complexity, you know, the  cognitive  complexity  it takes  to  process  so  much  information, it's  just  easier  to  reduce  down  into  those  basic  groups. Absolutely. And  we've  been  programmed  to  think  of these  generations  as  valid. I  mean,  we've  all  grown  up  just thinking  that  there's,  as  you  said, there's  Gen  X,  Gen  Y, there's  Gen  Z,  there's  the  boomers,  there's the-. We've  just  grown  up  thinking, "Well,  this  is  just  the  thing. This  has  to  be  real". So  nobody's  ever  really  come and very  loudly  said,  "No,  it's  not. We  made  this  up. It doesn't  have  to  be  this  way". Whoever  made  it  up  as  sitting  in a  corner  somewhere  going  "Yes,  it  worked." It  worked.  "My  plan  worked"  It did, exactly. Well, just  a  final  question  here,  Tracey, what  suggestions  do  you  have  for  us  moving  forward? Just  for  the  listeners, what  can  they  do?  We've  had some  of  that  in  this  conversation. Yeah,  I  think  summarizing  it  and  wrapping  it  up. Again, realize  this  is  about  you. Find  your  why. I  always  think  finding  your  why  is  a  good  place  to  start. Why  should  ageism  matter  to  you? Why  does  this  generational  stuff  matter  to  you? And  I  gave  some  reasons. It  matters  to  your  health, it  matters  to  your  happiness. Maybe  you're  driven  by  justice  and equity  and  you  want  a  just  and  equitable  world. Well,  it strips  us  of  that. Maybe  you  want  to  invest  in  your  own  elderhood  and  you want  to  have  a  world  where  you feel  like  no  matter  what  age  and  stage, you  have  a  role  that  you  can  contribute. Maybe  because  you  want  that  for  your  loved  ones. Maybe  there's  a  business  motivation for  you  because  actually  ageism  effects  businesses, strips  us  of  the  ability  to  innovate  in  certain  ways. It strips older people  the  opportunity  to  contribute. So  find  your  why, figured  out  why  this  matters  to  you. And  then,  I  think, start  thinking about  some  of  those  questions. Start  thinking  about  who  you  are  as  an  aging  person, how  you  feel  about  yourself. And then  keep  learning,  keep  reading,  keep  exploring. There's  plenty  of  articles  out  there. There's  more  and  more  conversation. Raise  awareness  of  ageism. I  truly  believe  that  we  will get  there  once  critical  mass  is  reached, and  that  means  each  person  makes  a  difference. And  then  finally,  I  would  say, realize  that  everybody  is a  role  model  for  what  it  means  to  age. So  what  we  say  and  how  we  say  it  matters. So  the  next  time  you're  talking about  yourself  as  an  aging  person, think  about  talking  about  it  in  terms  of  growth. Thinking  about  talking  about the  things  that  you're  looking  forward  to. Think  about  how  you  may  disparage  and  then  reframe  that. Because  we  all  have  power. And  I  think  that's  what  so  empowering is  that  each  person  can  make  a  difference. That's  fantastic.  Thank  you,  Tracey. I  appreciate  you  being  with  me  today. Thank  you  so  much. Okay.  I  want  to  ask  one  more  question. So  Chris,  I'm  going  to  ask this  question  and  we  can  just edit  it  in  right  before  I  started  the  last  question. Okay.  So  Tracey,  in  our  conversations, we've  actually-  with  me, I  come  from  a  background  working  in  disability. We've  talked  a  little  bit  about the  intersectionality  of  ageism  and  disability. Can  you  talk  a  little  bit  about  how ageism  intersects  with  a  lot  of different  elements  of  our  society  and  who  we  are? Absolutely.  There's  a  very  strong  connection between  ageism  and  ableism. And  it  goes  back  to  what  I  was  saying before  about  the  complexity  of  aging. So  with  aging,  while  we  have  growth, we  also  have  decline. So, as  much  as  we  live  in  a  just  society  as  you  know, we  live  in  an  ableist  society  that  is  very  much built  for  people  of certain  abilities  over  other  abilities. So  in  many  instances  you'll find  structural  ageism  and  ableism, so environments  that  aren't  accommodating  to  people  that have  any  kind  of  impairments  and  are  older. But  because  aging  and this  physical  decline  go  hand  in  hand, ageism  and  ableism  go  hand  in  hand. You know in  the  book,  I  write  about  an  example  of  if  you've  ever been  to  a  restaurant  that  is  really  dimly  lit, that  has  really  small  font  on  their  menus, that  has  really  loud  music  playing  in  the  background, you've  experienced  structural ageism and ableism. Those  environments  are  not  built  for  people  that  have any  kind  of  sensory  impairment  or  decline. Then  I  said,  instead  of  having bread  put  on  the  tables  and  appetizer, they  should  put  flashlights  and  glasses so that everybody  would  have  an  equal  chance  of  being  able  to  see the  menu  well. So-  And  find  the  bread  that's  been  put  on the table. And find the bread that's been  put  on  the  table. So  yeah,  I  think  they, they  do  go  hand  in  hand  very  often  and sometimes  what  somebody  thinks  is  ageist  is actually  ableist  and  vice  versa. So  I  just  think  it's  important that  we  recognize  both  of  those exist  and  that  we recognize  that,  while  they  go  hand  in  hand, you  can  have  a  disability  at  any  point  in  your  life. So  it  doesn't  necessarily  follow  suit  with  age. It's  just  more  likely  to  happen  as  you  get  older.